2:30 (3:00 with the delay in video and audio): Court is back in session following the lunch break.
Defense Counsel Terry Munyard continues his cross-examination of Karmoh Kanneh:
Def: On Friday you gave a list of people you said were at the meeting at Sam Bockarie’s house in December 1998, when you said there were 12 of you. These were the people you listed: Bockarie, Issa Sesay, Morris Kallon, Jungle. Is that right so far?
Wit: Four who were at the meeting?
Def: Just going through the 12…
Wit: Yes, those four were there.
Def: Eddie Kanneh, yourself, Major Francis, Matthew Barbue?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Junior Vandy, Chuckie (aka Bessay Gogbe – ph). Those were the names you gave us on Friday, then you said you were 12 in number. You remember?
Wit: Yes. There were 12 of us in the meeting.
Def: Let us look at what was recorded by the prosecution when you were telling them about the meeting.
Wit: Before going there, I would like to say something.
Judge Doherty: Is it in answer to the question?
Wit: I want to ask clarification. I’d like to know if the total went up to 12, because I was not counting when I told the names.
Def: You said you were 12 in number and gave the names you could recall. I don’t think you mentioned 12 people by name. You may not have remembered all of them on Friday, but you made plain that there were 12 of you.
Wit: Yes, that’s what I said. Because I said there were others.
Def: Let’s see what the prosecution have recorded. [references document] “Meeting took place from 11:00 to 2:00 AM. You said Mike Lamin, Sam Bockarie, SYB Rogers, Bessay Gobe, CO Lion, Jungle, Martin, Gaddafi (Foday), Issa Sesay, Jalloh, Tom Sandy, Rashid Sandy, Junior Vandy, [another], and Major Francis.” Did you tell the prosecution that 16 people were there?
Wit: No, and yesterday I even mentioned SYB Rogers.
Def: There’s no mention of Morris Kallon in that list from these notes. Was he there?
Wit: Morris Kallon was there.
Def: There’s no mention of Matthew Barbue. Was he at the meeting?
Wit: Yes.
Def: There are 16 names listed there, not 12.
Wit: There were 12 of us.
Def: Did you correct it when this was read back to you?
Wit: No. I did not know the number have gone beyond twelve.
Def: Did you not point out to them that Morris Kallon and Matthew Barbue were there?
Wit: I did not tell them that, but they were present.
Def: Did you tell the prosecution they were at the meeting?
Wit: There are some names in this list I did not give them, but there was Morris Kallon and Matthew Barbue as well. He spoke about CO Lion and I did not mention his name.
Judge Doherty: Are you referring to the prosecution or the court?
Wit: The prosecution.
Judge Sebutinde: Are you saying CO Lion was not at the meeting?
Wit: Not at all.
Def: So we should cross CO Lion off the list?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Let’s go through the list. Mike Lamin?
Wit: Yes, he was there.
Def: Mike Lamin was a very top level commander, wasn’t he? A general?
Wit: He did not get that rank.
Def: But he was one of the most senior figures in the movement?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Someone who spoke very strongly?
Wit: Yes.
Def: How is it you forgot him on Friday?
Wit: When I called the names, the names were not even up to 12. That’s why I said there were others.
Def: Sam Bockarie was there?
Wit: Yes.
Def: SYB Rogers?
Wit: Yes.
Def: You didn’t mention him on Friday.
Wit: I spoke about him on Friday.
Def: You did mention the man you know as Chuckie.
Wit: Yes, he was there.
Def: We cross out CO Lion. Jungle?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Martin?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Gaddafi, also known as Foday?
Wit: No.
Def: Who is he?
Wit: He was one of the battalion commanders at the Joru axis.
Def: Issa Sesay – you mentioned him?
Wit: Yes.
Def: What about Jalloh (MP)?
Wit: No, he was not there.
Def: Who was he?
Wit: A military police.
Def: Was Tom Sandy there?
Wit: No, he was in Kailahun.
Def: Rashid Sandy?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Junior Vandy?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Sam _____?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Francis?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Eddie Kanneh?
Wit: Yes.
Def: You mentioned him on Friday, but you didn’t tell the prosecution in November?
Wit: I told them, but they did not write it.
Def: They missed that one?
Wit: They added and deducted.
Def: When it was all read back to you, what did you say about inclusion of the ones who weren’t there?
Wit: I don’t know how they got it. I’m doubtful these men were in the group.
Def: Why are you doubtful?
Wit: I mentioned 12 names, and now I see others on the list, so I’m surprised.
Def: How could these names possibly been written down if you hadn’t said them?
Wit: I cannot tell how they managed to write it. Maybe they got the names from some other place.
Def: Did they have other people’s statements in front of them when they were interviewing you?
Wit: Never.
Def: Where could they have got some names from?
Wit: Even yourself, you have done that. I don’t know how you manage to get them.
Def: I get them from the prosecution, which wrote them down as coming from you.
Wit; I would like to know if they said I’d mentioned 16 names. I spoke about 12 all along, in my statements and even yesterday.
Def: Are you saying you didn’t realize that the prosecution got these names from you?
Wit: Yes.
Def: If it’s right that this is what you told them, how is it you gave them the names of four people who were nowhere near the meeting?
Wit: I have not even accepted that I was the one who gave them those four extra names. I gave the names I mentioned.
Def: You mean you accept the names you gave in evidence?
Wit: No.
Def: Was Isaac Mongor at this meeting?
Wit: No.
Def: Are you sure?
Wit: Yes. I did not see him.
Def: This is the meeting at which Bockarie tells you all about arms, ammunition and other items he brought back from Burkina Faso?
Wit: Yes.
Def: And there was only one such meeting with 12 senior RUF figures?
Wit: Yes.
Def: This is the meeting at which SYB Rogers was present?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Do you agree you didn’t list him on Friday when you were giving the list?
Wit: I mentioned him.
Def: Did SYB Rogers say anything you can remember at the meeting?
Wit: No.
Def: Did anyone praise Bockarie for bringing these materials?
Wit: Among the 12 of us?
Def: Yes.
Wit: I cannot recall. I’m not saying nobody did that, but I cannot recall.
Def: Were any photographs produced during the meeting?
Wit: There were no photographs.
Def: When do you say you saw the materials he brought back from Burkina Faso?
Wit: After the meeting, the following morning.
Def: Did you see any photos then?
Wit: No.
Def: Any photos of the hotel where he stayed in Burkina Faso?
Wit: No.
Def: Who did he say he’d gone with?
Wit: Gen. Ibrahim.
Def: Did SYB Rogers say he’d gone to Burkina Faso with Sam Bockarie on that trip to collect materials?
Wit: SB Rogers did not tell me that at that meeting.
Def: Were you at the whole meeting from start to finish?
Wit: Yes.
Def: SYB Rogers never said anything at all about being with Bockarie on that trip?
Pros: Objection. The witness said he didn’t hear Rogers say that, not that he didn’t say it.
Judge Doherty: I’ll allow the question.
Wit: I did not hear that.
Def: You are completely unaware that SYB Rogers was on that trip to Burkina Faso with Sam Bockarie?
Pros: I object. There’s no evidence of that.
Judge Doherty: It’s cross-examination. I’ll allow the question.
Def: There’s a significant body of evidence from other witnesses that SYB Rogers was on that trip, that he’d praised Bockarie at the meeting, and that they showed the photos of the hotel. Have you heard that Mr. Witness?
Wit: I did not hear those things.
Def: What was discussed about Saj Musa at that meeting?
Wit: Sam Bockarie spoke about Saj Musa. At first he described him as a traitor. He said he was a man who did not take orders. And he said the only way he would get him would be during an operation. He spoke about the discussion relating to Saj Musa that was between him and Gullit. Those were the most important things he said, even if I can’t recall others now.
Def: Let’s look at the record of what was discussed about Saj Musa. [references document] Question: “Was there discussion of Saj Musa at this meeting?” Your answer is recorded as “Sam Bockarie said…” and then it’s blank and goes to the next question. Question: “What was Bockarie’s reaction when Saj Musa died?” You said, “He was very happy because Saj Musa was blocking success of the RUF.” In November 2007, were you asked the question about Bockarie’s reaction when Saj Musa died?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Were you asked who killed Saj Musa?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Did you say there was a race between Saj Musa and Rambo to get to Freetown?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Did you go on to say that there was a big explosion and Saj Musa was killed?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Did you tell them this was something you heard but you weren’t actually there?
Wit: Yes.
Def: On the next page there is no mention of Saj Musa. The interview was resumed that afternoon and further to nighttime meeting at SB’s house, there are some more questions and answers on that page – they don’t deal with Saj Musa. On the next page there is no mention of Saj Musa. Then the following page deals with general questions and they don’t deal with Saj Musa. In the course of your evidence, you told us that rather more was discussed about Saj Musa at that meeting, didn’t you?
Wit: They spoke about Saj Musa issue in that meeting, and that mission was to be undertaken.
Def: You told us that Sam Bockarie said a complaint had gone up to Taylor about Saj Musa, and that Taylor had given his own advice. You remember saying that?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Why didn’t you tell that to the prosecution more than a year ago when you were asked about this meeting?
Wit: They did not ask a question about that.
Def: You were asked a question about whether there was discussion of Saj Musa at this meeting. You had an open-ended opportunity last November to tell the investigators and Mr. Santora everything about the discussion of Saj Musa.
Wit: I did not recall it at that moment.
Def: How could you possibly forget that you had decided you should go all out to ensure that Saj should not live to tell the story, if in fact that was said at that meeting?
Wit: You said it was an open question. They did not ask about Saj Musa’s issue. They did not ask me that.
Def: They asked if there was discussion of Saj Musa at the meeting. Why didn’t you say you’d discussed the complaint to Taylor about Saj, and that Bockarie said Saj should not live to tell the story?
Pros: I object to that question. [references document] The document says “Sam Bockarie said…” and then there’s nothing further recorded. It doesn’t follow that the witness said nothing. It’s unfair to put to this witness that he failed to answer that question when we don’t actually know what he said because it’s not recorded.
Def: Taking the recorded Q and A at face value the witness has said nothing else about Saj Musa at that time. There is no suggestion from this witness that he told them this and they failed to write it down. So it’s a perfectly fair question for me to put. When he was asked “who killed Saj Musa” he had another opportunity to tell the story.
Judge Doherty: Defense is entitled to put the question.
Def: Last Friday you told us a great deal about Saj Musa and what was discussed in the meeting about Saj Musa. You told us that the issue of clearing Makeni was discussed, who was in charge of the operation, and that Bockarie told Saj Musa before the attack on Kono, but he refused. You told us that?
Wit: Yes.
Def: He said he could not take orders from him, so there was a heated argument between them?
Wit: Yes.
Def: You were asked whether the argument took place during the meeting. You said yes, that Bockarie called him after the meeting, but there had been arguments even before the meeting.
Wit: Yes. I said that.
Def: Then you were asked what it was about Saj Musa that was discussed at the meeting. You said Bockarie told us that a complaint had gone up to Taylor and that he too gave his own piece of advice. You explained that Bockarie made the complaint to Taylor about Saj Musa’s attitude. Then you were asked if there was any further discussion about Musa at that meeting, and you said Bockarie made us to understand that that man should not live to tell the story. He said we should go all out to ensure that that man should not live to tell the story. You discussed the murder of Sam Bockarie at that meeting, didn’t you?
Wit: Saj Musa.
Def: Sorry.
Judge Doherty: For purposes of clarity, put that again.
Def: You discussed the murder of Saj Musa at Sam Bockarie’s house at that meeting in Decemeber 1998?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Not only that, you discussed the circumstances in which he should be killed?
Wit: Yes.
Def: On Friday you said “He said we should only be able to get them when there was a mission going on. He made us understand that he’d discussed it with Gullit. That man should not live – he was a traitor…he should die during the battle, he should be shot.” You said that on Friday?
Wit: Yes.
Def: You went on to say that this had all been discussed with Gullit and that Gullit did not actually say who should do the shooting, but that that was the plan. That was a very important issue, wasn’t it – the murder of a very senior AFRC figure?
Wit: Everything we discussed was important. It was one of the important things we discussed.
Def: So why didn’t you tell prosecutors that in November last year when they asked whether there was discussion of Saj Musa at the meeting, or when they asked who called Saj Musa?
Wit: I don’t know whether that question was asked of me – about Saj Musa. Maybe you should watch your paper again.
Def: I’m reading the paper now. You answered the question about who killed Saj Musa.
Wit: I heard the question that they asked me, I answered it. It’s not a lie.
Def: The answer you gave doesn’t include anything about Musa being shot during an operation, does it?
Wit: I believe that even Mrs. Bailey asked what they said when Saj Musa died. I said that they said a bomb exploded. But that was the plan that was already in place before.
Def: I’m asking about what you were asked last year. Has anyone ever suggested to you that somebody took advantage of the explosion at Benguema to shoot Saj Musa in the head?
Wit: No.
Def: The plan that you’ve told us about in your evidence, was that during a military operation someone was to shoot Saj dead?
Wit: It should be during a military operation that he should die, and he died during a military operation.
Def: That was the plan that you tell us was discussed in the meeting in December 1998, wasn’t it?
Wit: Yes.
Def: The very thing that happened?
Wit: Yes.
Def: You were told, according to the record of the interview, that you were told of the explosion that killed Saj Musa. Who told you about it?
Wit: They sent a message to Sam Bockarie and all of us monitored it.
Def: Who sent it?
Wit: Rambo sent it from Waterloo.
Def: The record of what you told the prosecution says “there was a big explosion and Saj Musa was killed”.
Wit: According to the message we got, the explosion killed Saj Musa. I was not there, but that was the plan.
Def: I’m going to move through the rest of the account you gave in November last year. The first question on this page is “At this meeting did Jungle or CO Lion say anything about Charles Taylor?” Do you remember being asked?
Wit: I remember about Jungle.
Def: Why do you think the prosecution asked about Jungle or CO Lion saying anything about Taylor if you didn’t tell them CO Lion was at the meeting.
Wit: I don’t recall mentioning CO Lion. I did not mention CO Lion.
Def: So when this question was asked, did you say, “Hang on a minute, CO Lion was not there.”?
Wit: If they had asked if CO Lion and Jungle were there together, I would have said CO Lion was not there. They only asked about Jungle.
Def: You were asked, “During the meeting, was there discussion about getting manpower support from Liberia?” The answer you gave is “Jungle, Morris Kallon and CO Lion suggested that.”
Wit: I did not mention Lion.
Def: Morris Kallon is not one of the 16 names we looked at earlier when you answered the question who was there, so that would make 17 names, if indeed you did say those first 16, wouldn’t it?
Wit: Who is the 17th?
Def: Morris Kallon.
Wit: No, even among that 12 people, there is Morris Kallon.
Def: The rest of the answer is “Bockarie rejected this because of past problems when the NPFL came.” Did you say that?
Wit: Yes.
Def: That he did agree that the force would come from the NPFL?
Wit: Yes I said that.
Def: “Bockarie was OK with ULIMO-K assistance”?
Wit: He said he preferred ULIMO-K to the NPFL. That is what I mentioned.
Def: Were ULIMO-K still in existence in December 1998?
Wit: No, but their members were still around.
Def: So Bockarie was saying he did not want manpower support from Liberia?
Wit: From NPFL? Yes, it’s correct.
Def: For NPFL in 1998, do you mean the Armed Forces of Liberia?
Wit: Yes, Mr. Taylor’s troops.
Def: So Bockarie rejected the idea of support from Mr. Taylor’s troops?
Wit: Yes.
Def: On the next page, “Further to nighttime meeting at SB’s house. Q: Was there any discussion about civilians? Your answer: There was no discussion about civilians.” Were you asked that and did you give that answer?
Wit: Yes.
Def: I want to ask more about the ending of the meeting. When you spoke about this earlier in your evidence, you said you heard Bockarie and Jungle speak to Mr. Taylor on the satellite phone. How did you know it was Mr. Taylor?
Wit: Before the discussion, Bockarie already told us that he was trying to call Mr. Taylor.
Def: Before the discussion?
Wit; Before he called he told us that.
Def: You said before “they told us they were talking to Mr. Taylor.”
Wit: That is the same.
Def: If they were talking to Mr. Taylor, why would they need to tell you?
Wit: We were in a meeting. Before he called he told us that he was now trying to call Mr. Taylor.
Def: By what name did they call Mr. Taylor?
Wit: They called him Mr. Taylor or Ghankay Taylor.
Def: What did you hear them say?
Wit: The time they called him Ghankay Taylor? It was many times since the RUF started.
Def: I want to ask a series of questions about different matters. But before I do, there’s one other matter relating to Saj Musa. [references document] This is the last time you were interviewed by prosecutors here in The Hague – 23 April of this year. “Saj Musa then left and went as far as Waterloo and he was trying to enter Freetown. Bockarie instructed Sesay to descend on Masiaka and keep defensive. But Musa had gone ahead and there was another conflict between Musa and Bockarie. He announced that he would take Freetown and become president.” Who would take Freetown and become president?
Wit: Saj Musa.
Def: So he wanted President Musa instead of President Sankoh?
Wit: Yes.
Def: How did he announce this?
Wit: We all used the same frequency. So normally we monitored the frequency and we got it through there.
Def: So everyone in the RUF and AFRC would have heard Saj Musa say that he was going to take Freetown and install himself as president?
Wit: All of us who were on the radio listening to the frequency when that message came – we all heard it.
Def: Are you able to give us the names of anyone else whom you believe heard this?
Wit: Yes. Sam Bockarie, Issa Sesay – those are the ones I can recall for now. I overheard their discussion.
Def: What was the reaction of Sam Bockarie to Musa announcing that he wanted to make himself president?
Wit: An argument ensued amongst the two of them. Later he also discussed with Issa about this man’s attitude.
Def: “Saj and Bockarie insulted each other over the radio.” Did you say that?
Wit: Yes.
Def: “Sesay was trying to liaise with new commanders so they could unite and take the city. There was a power struggle as to who should take the place of Saj Musa. This led to the failure to take Freetown.” You said this?
Wit: Yes.
Def: So it was this power struggle and not the military opposition that led to the rebels’ failure to take the entire town of Freetown?
Wit: It was the struggle, the power struggle they had amongst themselves. That was the reason.
Def: “On 6 January 1999, those who initially entered Freetown were mainly AFRC, with just some RUF.” Did you tell them that?
Wit: Yes.
Def: This was all part of what you describe as “Operation Free The Leader”?
Wit: Yes.
Def: And the number one objective of the operation was to indeed free the leader?
Wit: Yes.
Def: I’ll now go through some individual points with you. These aren’t necessarily connected subjects. You told us that someone called FOC was present at a meeting at the EMG ground. You remember?
Wit: Yes.
Def: You told us that FOC was Sankoh’s bodyguard?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Are you sure that he was Foday Sankoh’s bodyguard?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Was he ever anyone else’s bodyguard?
Wit: He was attached as a commander, but he never was a bodyguard to another person.
Def: You told us that after the overthrow, you received instructions from Sankoh, and that you first moved with Bockarie to Pendembu, Daru, then Benguema?
Wit; Yes.
Def: That in the morning you’d go with Bockarie in Freetown, then return in the evening?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Part of your task was to clear the road to Bo?
Wit: Part of my job? When I was in Benguema, part of my work was to go to Freetown and return, and part of my work was to clear the highway.
Def: You said that one of the things you had to do was to clear the road to Bo?
Wit: I joined Sam Bockarie to clear the road.
Def: The road to where?
Wit: From Freetown to Kenema.
Def: Do you agree you said Bo at one point?
Wit: Bo is between Freetown and Kenema.
Def: Indeed, at one point you said you were trying to divert the enemy’s attention on the Bo-Kenema highway?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Bo is very different place than Bo-Waterside?
Wit: Yes.
Def: [references document] This is the interview from 31 October last year: “Witness states that after arriving in Freetown, he was assigned to Bintumani area…stayed there for a month…then assigned by JPK to clear the road to Bo Waterside.” Did you say that?
Wit: He was not the one who assigned me. He gave the order to Bockarie.
Def: Did you say your assignment was to clear the road to Bo Waterside?
Wit: That was the mission we undertook. It was not an assignment.
Def: Was it Bo or Bo Waterside?
Wit: Both Bos are in there.
Def: Where?
Wit: The other Bo is the city of the city of the south town province. The other is on the border to Liberia.
Def: Bo-Waterside is not on the Freetown-Kenema highway, is it?
Wit: Not at all.
Def: But Bo is?
Wit: Yes.
Def: What was the mission you were given? To clear the road from Freetown to Kenema or to Bo-Waterside?
Wit: To clear the road to Bo-Waterside.
Def: Shortly after you told us about that in your earlier evidence, you gave evidence about mining. Do you remember telling us that in Tongo Field you were there for one month?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Was it just one month, or could it have been two months?
Wit: One month.
Def: Are you quite sure of that?
Wit: Yes.
Def: [references document] “Witness stated he did not recall Liberians visiting Jungle at Cyborg.” Did you say that?
Wit: Yes.
Def: So Cyborg Field is the mining field at Tongo?
Wit: Yes.
Def: “Witness was not present the entire time and left back to Kenema Town after about two months.”
Wit: I spent one month in Tongo.
Def: Did you tell the prosecution that you spent about two months there?
Wit: No.
Def: So that’s something they’ve invented, did they?
Wit: Yes.
Def: You went back to Kenema Town before “Black December”. What do you mean?
Wit: That was a CDF operation to overrun us together with the AFRC.
Def: Did that operation succeed?
Wit: No.
Judge Sebutinde: Are you saying the CDF were acting with the AFRC?
Wit: To overrun us.
Judge Sebutinde: Are you suggesting the CDF were working with the AFRC?
Wit: No.
Def: You told us in your evidence earlier that you and Jungle and somebody else saw diamonds being parceled in a two-story building in Tongo?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Why were you there?
Wit: Whether I saw diamonds parceled? Yes, we parceled them.
Def: Why you? You were a senior officer at this stage.
Wit: I was supposed to give report to Mr. Bockarie at that time.
Def: You personally took part in packaging them up?
Wit: We were all present. The diamond came to me first before I sent it to Bockarie. So I took part.
Def: But why you. You said your job was a military job and not a mining job. Why were you involved?
Wit: I was not involved in the mining, but when the diamonds were brought to me, I would have to involve myself. Bockarie was also a military man involved in diamonds. But I was not supervising the mining.
Def: Going back to the issue of the Black Gaddafa group – you remember you told us that this idea was an idea of Mr. Taylor’s? That he formed you into the Black Gaddafa group at Bomi Hills and that he provided the name?
Wit: Yes.
Def: You know King Perry?
Wit: Yes. I know one King Perry.
Def: King Perry Kamara?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Can you remember if he was in the Black Gaddafa group?
Wit: No.
Def: General Dry Peppe and Devon, they were involved when it was first set up?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Do you know a county called Cape Mount County in Liberia?
Wit: Yes.
Def: Do you know a district called Kporpor (ph)?
Wit: No.
Def: Would this be right? [reading] “General Devon and General Peppe came with arms and ammunition in trucks together with food. They said it was Taylor who organized us so we could fight back to Sierra Leone. There we got the name of the unit. We called it Black Gaddafa.” Do you agree that the unit got its name at a meeting in Kporpor district in Cape Mount County?
Wit: I don’t even know Kporpor district in Cape Mount County. Liberia is a place I don’t understand much. No.
Def: So it’s wrong to suggest that the Black Gaddafa was set up there?
Wit: Quite wrong.
Def: That it was set up by Generals Devon and Peppe without the presence of Taylor?
Wit: No.
Def: You said the Black Gaddafa unit consisted of 500 men?
Wit: 250 men.
Def: That they never split up into smaller units?
Wit; No.
Def: Did they ever go to Kakata?
Wit: No.
Def: You were asked about the killing of B.S. Massaquoi by Ms. Bailey?
Wit: Yes.
Def: [references document] “Witness states that this killing took place at Kenema Town around the time of the intervention…witness was present along with Sam Bockarie, [others]…” Did you say that?
Wit: Yes.
Judge Doherty: We’ve run out of time.
4:30 (5:00 with delay in video and audio): Court is adjourning for the day. Proceedings will resume tomorrow morning at 9:30.