10.00-12.00 (with 30 minutes delay in video and audio)
Open session
Presiding Judge Doherty: Good morning , I note some changes in prosecution?
Santoro for the prosecution: We are here today with Brenda Hollis, Maja Dimitrova and myself, Santoro.
Anyah for the defense: We are here today with Terry Munyard, Aanya and a new counsel Scott,
Presiding Judge Doherty: Welcome mr Scott. Madam witness you took the oath. That oath is still binding.
Wit: yes
Judge Doherty: proceed
Def: good morning, do you hear me well thru the interpretation?
Wit: yes
Def: we left of on Friday. We left of on evidence on Bobsinsisi. I would like to pick up were we left of. There is a transcript 28th of April, Page 8759 and going on to page 8760. Bobsinsisi was asked at line 29 at 8759: are you saying that Red Lion Battalion was formatted in Colonel Eddy Town? Answer: I said that later came t Red Lion Battalion, the arrival of this group was led by O’Five arrived in Colonel Eddy Town. Gullit said to form the Red Lion Battalion, and the Red Lion Battalion was formed at Colonel Eddy Town
Pros: Defense is mischaracterizing the testimony of Bobsinsisi.
Def: Bobsinsisi made a clear distinction between the Red Lion Battalion and the Group. That came out in the transcript I read last week.
Judge Doherty: I allow the question.
Def: Madam Witness, the new Red Lion Battalion was formed in Koinadugu?
Wit: yes
Def: I continue to read from line 5 Bobsinsis testimony, page 8760. Answer: you are telling me about Red Lion Battalion and the Group. The Red Lion Battalion was only formed at the arrival of Colonel Eddy Town and was asked by Gullit. SPFF, some RUF and STF including some SBU’s. Madam Witness, I ask you this, Bobsinsisi said that it was lead by Mohamed B.. Do you still stand by your evidence that it was O’Five the leader?
Wit: yes
Def: Do you still stand by your evidence that it was Gullit or Superman who formed the Red Lion Battalion?
Wit: yes
Def: Do you still stand by your evidence that you mentioned that there were 300 fighters and that you mentioned another number to the prosecution outside court?
Wit: can you please remind me?
Def: Before you is your statement and notes in reference in discussions they had last year with you. On page 13 paragraphs 77, tab 1 of the defense bundle, you made comments to them about the composition of the new Red Lion Battalion. Can you please read these notes?
Wit: yes
Def: heres what the pros had you saying about the composition of the Red Lion Battalion. After 3 or 4 days another fighting unit was formed. There were more that 400 fighters. O’Five was the commander. They went to Rosos to asssit a group that was cut off. Officer Brown and King Perry went with this Group. Why did you tell the prosecutors office in October that the group was 400 peolpe? And why did you tell us that it was 300.
Wit: when I got the q from the prso. The question they asked was how many men I thought…It should be around 400. in the court I was estimating the Red Lion Battalion. The manpower the lawyer asked me about that should be there would be 300. but the platoons tc. Could be 300.
Def: you agree that there is a difference between 300 and over 400 in number?
Wit: yes
Def: you are telling us that you are generally speaking about a size of a battalion and not necessarily the Red Lion Battalion?
Wit: yes
Def: do you expect us to believe that evidence?
Wit: I am speaking the truth.
Def: what was your highest rank in the RUF?
Wit: General
Def: you were a general in the RUF, is that your evidence?
Wit: No.
Def: You were trained as a fighter in the RUF, what was your highest rank in the RUF?
Wit: Mayor
Judge Lussick: why saying General first and then Mayor?
Wit: I though they asked what the highest rank within the RUF was.
Def: when were you promoted mayor?
Wit: in 1998
Def: who promoted you?
Wit: Superman.
Def: what was the highest rank amongst the radio-operators in the RUF?
Wit: Colonel
Def: what was the rank of Fodah Lasang?
Wit: Yes
Def: when you were in Koinadugu, who had the highest rank?
Wit: I was, King Perry and I.
Def: what was King Perry’s rank?
Wit: Mayor
Def: How many radio-operators were present in Koinadugu in 1998?
Wit: more than 5.
Def: So that would be about 5 plus you and King Perry Kamara and (…) Is this fair, 8 persons?
Wit: that would be fair. I cannot recall everybody. I have to count, and that will take some time.
Def: would 8 numbers be fair?
Wit: yes
Def: did any of the radio-operators participate in any fighting?
Wit: yes, Vandi and Sankoy
Def: just these two?
Wit: the operators went on missions with their radio. But every operation I would go on, I was not at the warfront.
Def: that is exactly the point. Were you at the warfront in Koinagudu?
Wit: I was far of if the mission would take a day journey I would not go with them. I did not take part in planning. I would receive messages or information.
Def: Did Kotto participate in any fighting? Did King Perry participate in any fighting?
Wit: Yes
Def: Do you know Ice T?
Wit: I cannot recall the name.
Def: do you know Bobsinsisi?
Wit: No
Def: you heard last week and early today comments that were made regarding the Red Lion Battalion. Bobsinsisi told the court that he was a fighter in Koinadugu and that he was often sent to the front. He said Mad Bajeje was the commander. Is this correct?
Pros: Objection, improper to ask the witness to comment on the credibility of another witness.
Def: It is appropriate to ask the witness whether this evidence is inaccurate. She can say why here evidence is more believable that Bobsinsisi’ evidence. There might be portions of Bobsinsisi’s evidence that is unclear.
Judge Doherty: you cannot ask the witness whether the witness is credible. We will make that decision. I will allow you to rephrase your question.
Def: madam witness…
Wit: I will say any unit that was formed in the headquarters. I can talk about that; it is possible that something happened while I was not there. There are things and places where he did go and I did not and there are things and places where I would go and he did not.
Def: are you aware that there can be changes in the composition while at the front line?
Wit: I know that. I know from the Koinadugu base that
O’five was the commander. And when they arrived in Freetown too. I did not hear that Bajeje was commander. I tell you what I know.
Def: what about King Perry who was a striker? Who is CY?
Wit: He was Superman’s Bodyguard commander that he sent as deputy commander to O’five.
Def: Was he RUF?
Wit: yes.
Def: CY was deputy commander of what group?
Wit: of O’Five and the Red Lion Battalion.
Def: Was King Perry is saying that?
Wit: what I know is the person that was the commander was
O’Five when he left base. He gave me the messages. I did not get messages from any other person but the commander.
Def: when was the last time you saw Senagalese, madam witness?
Wit: when we left Pumpkin Ground. I did not see him again in Makeni.
Def: What you call the new Red Lion Battalion, do you know if they made it to Freetown?
Wit: Yes, I know that they got to Freetown because I got the message from the commander.
Def: you mean O’five?
Wit: yes
Def: was this a radio message?
Wit: yes
Def: and was it to you or someone else?
Wit: A radio message to Superman and I spoke to the commander and I spoke to him on the radio.
Def: do you know how long they stayed in Freetown?
Wit: I cannot recall the days but they did not stay long.
Not longer that a week
Def: you did not go to Freetown. You did not know what the Red Lion Battalion did in Freetown?
Wit: I do not know because I was not there
Def: where did you go from Koinadugu?
Wit: Makeni
Def: Is this where the attack on (…) took place?
Wit: yes
def: were you with Superman in that period of time?
Wit: yes
Def: why did you go to (…)
Wit: got message from Sam Bockarie. Kabala was free and Superman should go there. So we went there. We were not thinking that there would be any soldiers
Def: was Sam Bockarie in Boudi when he sent the message, the message gave the impression that it was safe to go to Kabala?
Wit: we met (…) we saw the Guinea soldiers coming with tanks and there was a battle. But there were not many, we could stand them.
Def: did this cause a conflict between Superman and Sam Bockarie?
Wit: well, we had an accident from Makeni on the way. So Sam Bockarie could not give a message. Issa Sesayh came to arrest Superman. We came back to (…) that is when the problem started.
Def: how did this conflict and the arrest start?
Wit: Mosquito had sent them to arrest Superman. That is when Superman commanded them to go to (…)
Def: You mention an accident with Superman?
Wit: did you and Superman had a motor vehicle accident in December 1998?
Def: Was this on December 27th in 1998 and where were you and him going?
Wit: we left Kabala en went to Makeni
Def: he was drunk?
Wit: he was not drunk but drinking.
Def: you lost consciousness during the accident?
Wit: Superman was driving and he was drinking when we got the accident. Two tires blew off.
Def: you lost consciousness?
Wit: yes
Def: were you present when they came to arrest them?
Wit: I was in the room where I was put. I could not speak, I could not even drink. But I could hear them
Def: Superman managed to escape?
Wit: yes
Def: Issa Sesay and Morris Kalonis came to his house? What happened?
Wit: I heared firing, the place was looted and they took property.
Def: what was Issa Sesay?
Wit: second in command
Def: And Morris?
Wit: Third
Def: and Superman?
Wit: I don not know, Superman was third. But there was a lot of change.
Def: what was Superman’s position in the RUF on December 27 1998
Wit: Around that time, I do not know.
Def: but you know that the second and third in command came to the house and arrested superman. That was not the first time they came to the house to arrest them, was it?
Wit: no
Def: what happened in Lunsarr?
Wit: after we went to Lunsar. Issa Sesay and Kalong came with Rambo to arrest Superman and fighting took place on that day.
Def: the fighting was amongst (…) and between RUF members
Wit: yes
Def: Let me read what happened in December 1998, page 18. This is what you told the prosecution last October: While Superman’s group was in Lunsar, it was attacked twice by Issa Sesay and Rambo. The attacks were not successful. There was no communication wit Boidu. After the attack, Rambo’s vehicle was obtained. Later the herbal man came and peace was declared. This was before the Freetown invasion. The first attempt to arrest Superman took place November 1998. December 1 and January 6th. Within a week or so before the invasion of Freetown, Issa Sesay and Morris were busy chasing Superman to arrest him. They were also attacking the vehicle of RUF-member Rambo?
Wit: it was once when the vehicle of Rambo fell into
attack.
Def: during the attack and before the invasion in Freetown? This is the same RUF Rambo that you say who was asked to make peace between Issa Sesay and Superman? Issa Sesay began to attack the peacemaker?
Wit; I never said that Issa Sesay attacked Rambo. But they used Rambo to came to us. It was not Issa Sesay who attacked Rambo.
Def: was there fighting between Superman and Sam Bockarie, when?
Wit: yes, first I know since I stayed with Superman. They would not physically attack but on the radio. When we came to Lunsar the gun fighting I witnessed.
Def: between Issa Sesay and Superman. And between Sam Bockarie and Superman were conflicts.
Wit: yes
Def: At times they would come together during operations, but not always?
Wit: yes
Def: Superman refused to follow orders from Sam Bockarie?
Wit: yes
Def: Superman started out at a direction of Sam Bockarie to attack and kill Saj Musa’s men. That was an order of Sam Bockarie to Superman? Did Superman refuse to follow this order?
Wit: yes. Superman said the SLA did not do anything that would make him do that, there was no reason for him to kill them.
Def: Did Sam Bockarie give sanctions?
Wit: yes he said that we are not part of RUF anymore, because Superman joined Saj Musa. Some of the were punished and mistreated. Some people had to hide.
Def: all of you were no longer part of the RUF?
Wit: yes
Def: Sam Bockarie was the highest in command within the RUF?
Wit: yes
Def: Superman was in force of all the forces in Koinadugu including the Red Lion Battalion.
Wit: yes. But the Red Lion Battalion that was formed when I left for Rosos, the Red Lion Battalion that was formed in Koinadugu, did only stay there for two days and left to Rosos, but they were loyal to Superman.
Def: was general Brookley there under the command?
Wit: yes
Def: when Sam Bockarie said that you were no longer part of the RUF? So at the time of the radio message, all of these people and units under Superman’s command were no longer part of the RUF?
Wit: yes
Def: where were your children when you were moving along with the RUF in 1998?
Wit: I left my eldest daughter in Freetown with my mother. She was 3 years. Like I said before the intervention I had two children, an elder girl and a boy who died. He had not even walked yet. But before I went to Koinadugu I left my boy at Boidu at my sister’s place.
Def: This was the boy who was killed by Sam Bockarie?
Wit: yes
Def: so by late December you only had one daughter? Your son passed in 1999?
Wit: yes
Def: If she was 3, she is now 13 years. How old is your other daughter?
Wit: After that boy I had a girl. She is 8.
Def: is the 8 years old also Foday Lansana’s daughter?
Wit: yes
Def: did Foday Lansana stay in contact with his daughters?
Wit: yes
Def: Are the children in Sierra Leone right now?
Wit: yes, they live with me
Def: when was the last time when Foday Lansana saw his daughters?
Wit: before I came to Holland he came and saw them
Def: when did you come to Holland?
Wit: I left Freetown on Friday June 6h. I arrived here on a Saturday morning.
Def: you said Lansana would have seen his children. Had Foday Lansana met with his children during the course of 2008. When was the last month he left with his children?
Wit: June
Def: were you presence when he met his children?
Wit: yes
Def: that was within a week from your departure from Holland. You are aware that Lansana gave evidence before this court on 28 February 2008?
Wit: I heard it on the radio. Bu he did not tell me. After he came back he did not tell me either.
Def: was this radio in Sierra Leone?
Wit: yes FM.
Def: Tell me about it.
Wit: I was in a shop. What I heard there was a special court program. When I heard them I recognized his voice. I did not listen because I came to collect my clothes, but I knew he was speaking.
Def: you did not stay around to listen what was being said?
Wit: yes
Def: when Foday Lansana did you ask him about his trip to Holland?
Wit: we speak seldom.
Def: were you are witness of the pros for that time?
Wit: I cannot recall the time now, but I believe so.
Def: you met them twice in November 2007 wit the pros, 5th December 2007 and in March of this year. And in May this year. When you saw Foday Lansana did you ask him how it was like to be a witness for the prosecution?
Wit: He said he wanted to go out with the children. The children said they wanted to go to church, so he took them.
Def: how long did he spend time with them?
Wit: well he took them to church after that he took them home.
Def: Do you know CO Isaac?
Wit: CO Isaac was a commander. He was not a trainer of fighter.
Def: have you heard the name CO Isaac before?
Wit: yes
Def: Is he the same person as Isaac Mangoh?
Wit: CO Isaac was on the base and Isaac Mangoh was in (…)
Def: did you ever hear of another name within the RUF than Foday Lansana that was different from the father of your children?
Wit: some of the men did not give their actual names. I did not hear about it.
Def: can we go to document MFI 17 and P 30 c? Madam witness you recall that I showed you this picture on Friday? When I showed it to you, you could not identify either of the persons pictured. The prosecutor showed this same photograph to you in May. You could not identify the picture either at that time. Do you see a number beneath that picture: P00000641. Do you see document P 30 C. Do you see the new photograph? This is the same photograph. Do you see names and arrows pointing at the photograph? The person who did those indications is Varmuyan Sherif. Do you agree that the person on the left is Sam Bockarie?
Wit: Well I cannot say. I did not know him very well. I do not know I cannot identify him. I stayed with Superman, I could say this is Superman even from his back, because I know him. But I do not Sam Bockarie.
Def: Do you think this photograph does not show him properly?
Wit: I saw Sam Bockarie once in 3 places. But I cannot see him well in that photograph since I am not used to him.
Def: but this I the man you met twice, getting ammunition. In one of the places where he stayed, you were there.
Wit: I did not meet him there
Def: despite what Varmuyan Sherif stated, you cannot say that this is Sam Bockarie?
Wit: yes.
Def: since you became a witness, had the prosecutor paid you rent where you live?
Wit: I do not know how they located me.
Def: have they given you many for lost wages or meals?
Wit: yes, they would repay me, if I travel and would buy something I would pay for it but they would repay me.
Def: did they give you money for rice?
Wit: yes.
Def: how much was given to you to by rice.
Wit: The rice was going for 80,000.
Def: that is SLL?
Wit: yes
Def: tab 7 and 8 of the defense bundle. Look at 7 first. The prosecutor keeps a record the was spent on you. Tab 7 says TFI 584. That is how we know this document refers to you. The witness is brought on protective care on 9 January 2008. You recall me asking you that when 28 February. You were a witness for the pros as well. Have you given them your word that you would testify against Charles Taylor?
Wit: yes
Def: do you see that you have been paid a total of 4,2000,000 SLL. Does that figure sound about right to you?
Wit: I cannot deny that. They gave it to me, but I cannot calculate it al by myself.
Def: do you see the section ‘rent’, do you see that it says approximately 3,000 US$.
Wit: yes
Def: equivalent to 3,750,000 SLL and of … does that figures sound right to you that you received this money from February this year?
Wit: yes. But I cannot tell you what they exactly gave to me. But it sounds right.
Def: Let’s go to tab 8. Payment paid to witness paid to ‘their’ travel to meet with the pros on 17th October. Did you meet with them anyone or with someone else.
Wit: Someone else you mean form the court of my own site?
Def: someone not from the office, someone who went with you?
Wit: I cannot recall
Def: do you see the word ‘their’, did you travel with someone else?
Wit: I did not travel with someone else
Def: was the payment exclusively for you travel?
Wit: yes, I used to go and sometimes I had to come back. If I had to come back, they had to give me more money
Def: what was your work during that period?
Wit: I was teaching.
Def: the bottom of the documents you see November 20th 2007. Says emergency money for rice 80,000 SLL. If you were not a witness in this case you were have to pay for the rice yourself. They gave you an extra 5,000 SLL to carry the rice.
Wit: yes
Def: on the next page 3, entry nr 10. the date 30th November 2007 says you are given 50,000 SLL was spent on your behalf. Witness is suffering from malaria, so provided money so she can eat.
Wit: I reported to them I was sick. The doctor told them what I should eat.
Def: they spend 50,000 SLL to make sure you ate the right food. Did they pay for your medical treatments as well?
Wit: yes some.
Def: did they provide you with a sim card for you mobile telephone?
Wit: yes
Def: If your were not a witness in this Court, but a regular citizen of Sierra Leone, you would have to buy the appropriate food for your condition by yourself?
Wit: yes
Def: you see the final figure …spend 982,000 SLL on you in two and a half months. That is nearly one million.
Wit: yes
Def: Madam president, I do not have further questions.
Judge Doherty: mr Santora,
Pros: Good Morning ms Witness
Witness: good morning
Pros: when the defense counsel was asking you questions on Friday, he asked you when you went to Boidu when Superman was called that you met Jungle in the Zoo Bush outside of Boidu. Can you describe were this ZOO bush is, how far from Boidu when you had this ceremony with the herbalists?
Wit: it was not far, not half a mile
Pros: the defense counsel asked you whether you agreed with the statements of King Perry’s testimony. He read quite some portion of King Perry’s statements, but not all. I ask you again to listen to some portion of King Perry and tell me whether you agree. Transcript on Feb 6th 2008. Question: who do you say or who was the leader of the entire group that left Koinadugu? Answer: it was O’five. Do you agree?
Wit: Agree
Def: this was in reference with the new Red Lion Battalion. If that is the case I am objecting.
Judge Doherty: what are you objecting to? I understood the question to be the entire group…
Def: pg 46 let me read counsel question. This is in reference with the group from Koinadugu to Rosos, the witness referred to the group as the new Red Lion Battalion. I am objecting to that since the witness did not state enough that all and the entire group left.
Judge Doherty: I see. To imply to the witness that it was exclusively the Red Lion Battalion is misleading.
Pros: I was trying to be particular and careful, as this witness referred to this group as the new Red Lion Battalion, that is why I referred to it this way.
Def: when evidence is mischaracterized, you are attaching a different weight to the evidence.
judge Doherty: we note your objection, but the question has been answered.
Wit: I just want to comment a little, regarding the prosecutor’s question. I am sure that the group was King Perry and the Red Lion Battalion that he left together with. After he left Koinadugu he would not say anything about the group that stayed there, because he moved to Rosos.
Pros: Whether you agreed with Bobsinsis TFI 334 who testified in April. Defense asked certain portions whether you agreed 28th April this year. The witness in this instance was asked by the defense counsel whether he agreed that the Red Lion Battalion existed before he came to Colon Eddy Town. A: I told you that when they came it was Gullit who decided to form the battalion there. Do you agree?
Wit: yes. Like I answered. I knew that the Red Lion Battalion was formed in Koi and O’five was the commander. I did not receive any message from other commanders but O’five when the arrived in Rosos. I agree that the Red Lion Battalion existed from Koinadugu under command of O’Five anything after that, I do not know about that.
Def: page 17…
judge Sebutinde: does the witness agree? The Red Lion Battalion existed before the came to Colonel Eddy Town, so here answer does not agree with what the witness is saying.
Pros: the fact that they formed Red Lion Battalion in Koinagudu, was before they went to Colonel Eddy Town.
Judge Sebutinde: please move on…
Pros: next portion page 17, lines 21 and 22 of today’s proceeding. Defense counsel asked you, you did not know what the Red Lion Battalion did in Freetown. You said: I did not know because I was not there expect the things I have her that happened there.
Wit: Yes I heard that they burned down houses, killed civilians and looted properties. Some of them I saw them bring. Mostly they brought money. Because most of them could not find a lot of things so they would bring money.
Sebutinde: Is the witness telling what happened there or what the Red Lion Battalion did there?
Def: did you hear what happened there of or did you hear what the Red Lion Battalion did there?
Wit: those are the things that happened in Freetown in which the Red Lion Battalion participated.
Def: From whom did you hear this?
Wit: King Perry and the boys of Superman.
Pros: Map S3D of Kono district marked by the witness. Exhibit P-146.
Judge Doherty: Tingi Mountains to Daru in the South as marked by the witness. It becomes prosecution exhibit P-146. Please proceed.
Pros: MFI 17 map of Sierra Leone marked was previously S 19. The map was marked during her witness.
Judge Doherty: Line showing trips and routes made will be exhibiting P 147
Pros: no further exhibits by the prosecution
Def: we have 3 exhibits; MFI 1 is the photograph of two individuals, not marked by this witness marked as 641.
Judge Doherty: This is a photograph of two individuals standing on a ploughed road and several people in the background. This will be marked as D 51
Def: MFI 2 a map disclosed to the prosecution to the defense marked out of court by the witness and was put before the witness during the cross examination.
Judge: This is a map from the Kono area like in P 146 but will also be marked as D 52.
Def: MFI 3, this document is disclosed to witness out of court.
Judge Doherty: This is a map of Sierra Leone marked by the witness with routing in the Hastings area, this will be marked as exhibit D 53. We will release the witness. Madam Witness this is your evidence. You are free to leave the court. We thank you for giving evidence in the court and wish you a save trip home.
(Witness leaves court)
Hollis: The next witness will be TFI (…) and will have various protective measures such as Facial, voice distortion. The witness will testify in Liberian English. We would consider breaking earlier
Judge Doherty: We will take an early adjournment and resume at 12:00.